Lenka Jendželovská: “Today, it’s good that there are more women in IT, and it’s not just a male company anymore.”
Hi, in today’s podcast, we’re going to talk with Lenka Jendželovská, a university teacher and lecturer of professional courses. Lenka has been working in the IT environment since 2007, when she started working at Unicorn. Currently, she focuses mainly on educating juniors in testing, runs Tester Academy courses, and teaches the Quality Assurance course at Unicorn University.
Leni, welcome to us.
Thank you for inviting me.
I’d be interested to know how you got your job at the college and what subjects you teach there.
As mentioned, I’m involved in preparing and teaching the Quality Assurance course related to the testing mentioned above. And I got into it quite straightforwardly when I mentioned in one of the assessment interviews that I would like to be a lecturer. It started with me being a lecturer for internal courses. Then, someone from the university got in touch, so, of course, I went for it because teaching is something I really enjoy. I’ve always wanted to be a teacher, but I’m a bit put off by the kids’ attitude, and here at university, it’s just a bit different, so I’m happy to be part of it.
And how do you spend your free time when you’re not teaching?
I mainly work when I’m not teaching because teaching is not my primary field or job, so I work for Unicorn as a tester, test architect, or test manager. It always depends on how it works out. Otherwise, I’m the kind of person who likes culture and music. There’s a lot of singing at home and not only at home but also at work. I like to make up some poems to entertain my colleagues, so we have a lot of fun at work. And I have two children, so there is never a shortage of fun.
Is there anything that led you to decide to pursue teaching and teaching testing directly?
I think it goes back to when I was maybe four years old. I learned to read early on, so I don’t really remember, but my parents say I read to the kids in kindergarten instead of the teacher at bedtime, and I guess that’s how it started. After that, maybe I tutored my classmates when they were not good at something. I enjoy it so much, and as I mentioned, I have two kids and would love to help them. I totally don’t care to explain math to them at home, but I would love to.
Speaking of testing, how are software testing and quality assurance connected?
I would like to clarify these concepts. We talk a lot about testing on Tester Academy and then we have a Quality Assurance class. When we hear these words, they’re basically similar, so I’ll just mention that testing is an area where we really test an application or a product, and it can be anything, even from life. Meanwhile, in quality assurance, we already worry about complete quality, not just whether the application is doing what it should, but maybe even whether we’re developing it correctly and in the right order. I also like to include how we communicate with the client so that we can be relied on and the client is comfortable working with us. So all of that falls into that, and one of the things we do for quality assurance, of course, is application testing.
Can you describe the importance of testing in the software development process?
There is a lot of talk about testing nowadays. In my younger days, it was still in its infancy. I didn’t know that testing existed. I got into it by accident. I would like to test what we experienced in everyday life. For example, when we buy clothes, we can go to the store and purchase anything, but it might not fit us perfectly. When we get a garment made to measure, we go to clothes fittings. I can’t imagine any seamstress (sewing is one of my hobbies, by the way)measuring us perfectly and knowing exactly what we want. I don’t think it would happen that she would sew it, and we would put it on, and it would be a “tip-top”fit; that would have to be a big coincidence. So, it’s something like that. You need to test as you go along, not after the whole application is done or the entire garment is sewn. Even with the clothes, we go for interim fittings because it’s hard to salvage them afterward. If I put a jacket on and it’s small at the end, it’s hard to sew in any stripes. It’s not going to be pretty. The same thing with software development. It’s hard to maintain at the end; you must start now. And I’d like to point out that it’s not just about testing the app once it’s developed and once we can click into it. It’s also about the fact that we’re already probing in advance what the client wants, what kind of app they want, how our analysts have figured it out, and we’re already there trying to find bugs.
What does a candidate who wants to become a tester have to do?
I think they should first consider their decision because it may seem that testing is fun, and we testers look for faults in others. Which may seem fine, and it is fine. We don’t usually create anything but check for other people’s mistakes. That’s always a lot of fun, but it’s not just about that, and that’s what I try to convey in the Tester Academy courses. So, it’s better to ask someone what the job entails. It’s different in every company, and it’s different in every project. I think one good way to start is to take a course like our Tester Academy. There, participants will learn a lot of information from us, who have been doing testing for many years. And it’s also important to consider your prerequisites. Many course participants mentioned wanting to start software testing because someone told them it was the best way to get into IT. I’m sure there’s some truth to that, but you need to have the prerequisites to do it because it doesn’t always work that someone gives you a scenario and you just check against it that A is A, B is B, and go home. It’s much, much more complicated than that. On the other hand, you don’t need to understand IT. I think what’s important is common sense, logical thinking, and a willingness to “tinker” with things because testing is a lot about tinkering with something, asking why it behaves that way, in what situations it behaves that way, so having a willingness to do that.
You’re also interviewing for a tester position. How do these interviews work?
That’s more like fun. I usually prepare puzzles and logic problems. I don’t do interviews in the form of a written test because I know by myself that when I get an assignment, I just get it wrong at the beginning, and logically, the result is bad. For example, for kids at school, if they get the wrong sign at the beginning, the result is wrong, and they get an F. I try to do it in such a way that I go over everything with the interviewee from the beginning. They’re given a task or a puzzle. It’s not from the IT field unless someone already has IT experience, so maybe we can go there as well, but I usually try to ask questions from something that’s close to them. I don’t know if you like to cook, but let’s assume you do, so if you came in for an interview, I’d ask: “We’re going to cook, what do we need to prepare in advance, and what will be the outcome of our efforts?” That way, I try to work my way through the interview, have logical tasks prepared, and try to guide the person. For someone nervous at the beginning, I can just nudge them and see the anxiety slipping away. So, the interview is in the form of discussing and talking.
I trust that interviewing you is enjoyable.
It is for me, for sure, and hopefully for the participants, too.
What are the types of tester career paths from beginner to advanced and professional?
The paths can be very, very colorful. Some people find themselves in testing like me, so they don’t stray too far from the path of a tester. I started as a junior manual tester, i.e., just “clicking,” and eventually started automated tests. Of course, I gradually began designing tests, so there are test architect positions or test management positions, like test manager, etc. There’s not much above that anymore. Or we can get off that path occasionally, which is fine, too, because I think a good tester should have some insight into other professions, like I mentioned, such as testing and quality assurance. For testers to be able to do all the quality assurance testing, they need to see what others are doing. It happens that testers are found more in analysis, so they write documentation, and someone is a proficient programmer, for example, so they become a developer. I was a project manager for a while because I had a lot of insight into the project or application as a tester. The paths are really varied, and everyone will find it in themselves to find what puts them on the right path.
What do you think are the most attractive industries for testers today?
For example, I enjoy my work. I work on energy projects and greatly enjoy them because they are something an ordinary person can’t imagine. Applications like that, the ordinary person doesn’t know they even exist. And I can imagine that it can be interesting to test something that the rest of the world is anxiously waiting for, like new versions of operating systems or cars and their new functionality that doesn’t exist yet and won’t for a long time. I think it can be fascinating to explore those areas.
Now, we’d like to move on to the Tester Academy, where you run courses. How would you describe the Tester Academy course, and what are its main advantages?
For me, it’s a bit of a coffee session. I always make myself a cup of coffee or a cup of tea. The courses are in four-hour blocks; we now have afternoon or evening courses. The afternoon classes run from 1 pm to 5 pm, and the evening classes run from 5 pm to 9 pm. Within each block, I get to know the participants at the beginning to find out what they do and what profession they come from. They’re often moms on parental leave, sometimes IT people from a different area. There are also people completely outside the industry. So, I get to know them, and we start with a kind of tester theory to get us on the same wave because typically, there are people who already know about testing or maybe have tried it before, and there are some who have no idea what it’s all about, so we get on the same wave first. We have two academies – manual and automatic. The idea is that in manual one, we first teach the classic manual tests, i.e., how to click on the application and prepare test scenarios. In the end, we have the so-called game testing, where they try everything once again under the supervision of a tutor. In the automated part, they learn some technical basics, so they understand a little bit what Jason is, what an XML file is, and so on. Personally, I always try to tailor the courses to the participants so they never run the same. It’s always a matter of agreement. Do you want to create scenarios together? Let’s go. Do you want to try it in pairs? Do you want to go it alone? We’re good to go. Want to test our sample app? No problem. Do you want to test an e-shop? No problem. It’s always by appointment. For me, it’s nice four hours of talking and explaining what testing is all about.
I was going to ask who the academy is suitable for, but it sounds like everyone...
For everyone. Just come in a good mood and be interested.
Are the academies onsite or online?
They are entirely online, which is nice because we can connect from different parts of the country. It’s important that the participant has a laptop and can hear me well and talk to me. One needs headphones, a microphone, a speaker, and, ideally, a camera because the interaction is better with the camera on. On the other hand, it happens that moms have a baby on their lap. I get some at home, too. We often take breaks to refresh ourselves. All the lessons are recorded. It happens that someone can’t make it or is driving. It’s not a problem at all, and they listen to the lesson afterward. Or, they’ll finish their homework when they get to the place, pull over, and have a break. We’re also available for written communication with the participants each lesson, so everything can be arranged.
Is frequent interaction needed, or what is expected of participants?
Again, it is all up to agreement. Of course, some people don’t want to express themselves, don’t ask, or are shy. So, I leave it to them to learn to pick up what they need, not necessarily to ask or answer questions. Then again, some people like to debate; that’s not a problem either. I allow participants to send me questions completely off to the side in messages so they don’t feel embarrassed in front of someone. I know this from myself. I used to be like that, too; I didn’t ask questions anywhere, I was scared, I was embarrassed. So, there are options like that as well; they can write a question to me sideways, and I’ll answer it. Nobody knows who sent the question.
And let me ask you, what is expected of the participants? What activities do they have to do?
Of course, if they decide to participate, I expect them to do what we assign them. For example, we create test scenarios and distribute some tools to support testing. It’s certainly nice to have them participate like that. If they don’t – we’ll explain ten times what the test scenario should contain. Yet, it happens that somebody says:“No, I don’t even know which way to go,” so I’ll write it with them. I start sharing the screen, and then they catch on. So that’s kind of a simple task within the lesson.
When does the next academy start, and where can people apply?
I think the next academy starts next week and it’s the evening one. Then, at the end of April – the afternoon one. The next afternoon one will be over the holidays in July, and then, in September, we also have an afternoon one from 1 pm to 5 pm. Interested people can sign up at courses.unicornuniversity.net, where they can find all the information available.
Sign up, sign up!
Sign up; we look forward to seeing you.
In terms of inspiring women in IT or the tech world in general. What are the main challenges women face when entering the technology industry?
In my opinion, it’s not even about women per se. Because I haven’t encountered that yet. Of course, there were a few of us, girls, in college, and sometimes that can bring positives, sometimes negatives. It’s all about people and the same thing at work. I don’t think I’ve encountered much of a difference, but what I think has interfered a little bit with the fact that mostly we, women, are the caregivers. And that’s sometimes more problematic, but again, it’s how one perceives it. Now, you’re sitting in an office with all, let’s say, single men around 25, and I’m a mum of two, and I must leave early. But that’s probably not even related to IT; it will be everywhere. So, I’m glad my colleagues have grown to the age when they have kids, and we’re dealing with the same issues. Sometimes, it’s the dads who are more in charge of the kids again. So, I personally haven’t come across any women having it any more complicated at work. Maybe, and this doesn’t apply only to women either, we’ve encountered someone who doesn’t work in IT looking at it like, WOW, they are “IT people.” But I think at least I’m kind of normal. There’s this rumor somewhere that IT people are antisocial, but I’m more of the crazy kind. Of course, there are some antisocial people, but I think we’re all normal people. It’s not like it used to be; there’s nothing to worry about. On the other hand, I admire people who know some nice crafts, actors, and singers.
How can we encourage and motivate women to get involved in technical fields?
Now, you’re leading me to another question. What are your thoughts on the role of women in the future of testing, and how can we prepare for these changes?
I think, and now I hope I don’t say something unfair. It’s been said that we women can focus on several things at once. I really think there’s something to this. I think we’re just generally more diligent about it, and we have that at home. For example, just yesterday, I was testing something very time-consuming and had to finish it quickly with my son reading fables behind my back. “And I’ll read one more, Mom!” So, I’m glad he’s reading, but I don’t have time. I’ve managed to take in both, and the job is done. So, I don’t think women should be afraid of that. IT is not a… it’s a science, but it’s not rocket science. I think the attitude of the environment is essential. Sometimes jokes are made about women or maybe inappropriate language, but again, it’s all about people. I don’t completely relate to it, and then there’s no reason to differentiate between women and men. Women don’t worry about it; it’s fun out there.
Is there anyone who inspires you, maybe a woman in IT or outside?
In IT, I admit there’s really no one, but that’s more because I got into IT in 2007, and at that time, I didn’t even have complete awareness; although I did study cybernetics at university, I was seduced there more by chance. I would have pursued completely different fields myself and somehow got into tech by chance. So, I didn’t know any inspiring women in that sense or IT. What can inspire me in some way, and that can be both women and men, is someone who promotes a healthy lifestyle and how to combine work and family with leisure.
What advice would you give young women who want to succeed in the tech industry, and what are the crucial skills?
Specifically for testing, I think entry-level skills involve having common sense, a willingness to look for problems, analytical thinking, and diligence. And consider if it’s the right fit. Some people go into IT because a friend said there’s a lot of money to be made there, because a friend said testing is cool, because a friend develops well, so I thought testing might be cool. So, I think it’s more like consider it and don’t take it to mean that IT is all-powerful. There are plenty of other exciting professions. I’m just really into testing. Not being afraid of it, finding out about it, and trying out a course. Testing is present in our lives, too, so just try to think about it. If someone is going to interview, I wouldn’t be afraid to interview testers without experience. When we finished a seminar, a student asked me about this recently, so I told them to try it and apply for the interview. At our company, we are sympathetic to such interviewees. It doesn’t matter that they have no testing experience.
On the other hand, they should be interested in testing and study the basic concepts to know a little bit. I don’t mind if they don’t know everything, but it’s OK if they come in and say: “I’ve never tested, but I know there are test scenarios, and I know what a Smoke test is.” So be interested and try to think. If you want to become a tester, think about how you would test a glass of water and how you would test this beautiful chair.
That’s lovely. Thank you so much for the nice and inspiring interview.
Thank you so much.
We’ll look forward to the next podcast. Have a nice day.
